Designed for Greatness with Candice Noss

22. Asnwering the call: fulfilling yoru personal ministry with Meghan Farner
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[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Design for Greatness podcast conversations with canvas to help you elevate your mind, body and spirit and own your divine greatness. Today, you have episode number 22, answering the call, fulfilling your own personal ministry with Megan Farner. Oh, do I have a treat for you guys today?

I know you're going to be so blessed for spending the next couple of minutes with Megan Farner. I first met Megan when a mutual friend, Jocelyn Peterson, connected us and recommended me to be on Megan's podcast, which is the Latter day Disciples. And we totally hit it off. I feel like our missions are so in alignment.

And you know when you meet someone for the first time and But like in your heart, you know, you've known them forever. There's like this premortal vibe and it's undeniable. Um, that's how I feel about Megan. And I'm so grateful for her. So Megan has had incredible experiences by following a deep, sincere desire.

to sanctify [00:01:00] herself and truly come unto Christ. And it has led her to her own personal ministry, um, where she is truly owning her divine greatness and doing really great important things in this world. So here's a quick bio, um, and then we'll jump right in. Megan Farner and her family live in East Idaho.

She is the host of the latter day disciples podcast and a lifelong disciple of Jesus Christ. Her favorite thing in the world is deep doctrinal conversations, particularly as they relate to becoming spiritually prepared to receive the Lord, which is the most important thing. Megan openly advocates the practice of fearlessly seeking truth out of all the places that the Spirit may lead while being immovably grounded in Jesus Christ.

Her background in business, communication, psychology, and human relations, along with her personal studies of scripture, including the Apocrypha, ancient history, and other faith traditions, make her a renaissance woman and an engaging hostess and presenter. Recently, Megan has felt guided to explore the history and theology of the divine [00:02:00] feminine, including how women can know and experience Heavenly Mother by knowing themselves.

And that is something that thrills me. I'm so excited for her new book to come out. It's called Consider Yourself as Eve. And, um, Megan, we're just so thrilled to have you here. Oh, thank you. That was like the nicest introduction ever. So thanks Candice. I feel the same kinship for you. So I am so grateful that you came on my show and for all the thoughts that you shared there.

And I'm grateful to be here. Thanks for inviting me on. Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So I just want to jump right in because there are so many things that I want to discuss with you. So first of all, will you articulate what you feel your personal ministry is and share with us some of the details and the critical moments that led you to this understanding?

Yeah, thank you. I saw that this might be a possible question that you would ask, and I was excited by that [00:03:00] because I feel like I just kind of barely put some of the puzzle pieces together, um, to answer this question. And I'll say that the short answer that Just recently I feel was revealed to me is that my ministry is about the restoration of the Divine Feminine of our Heavenly Mother.

Um, you know, we live in the fullness of times and she is coming back. She was there in the beginning. She was there for a long time. She was lost. She's been lost for millennia. But she's coming back and I see this resurgence of her both in the LDS faith tradition that we are both a part of, but also far outside of that, um, in really all realms of different kinds of faith, both Christian and not Christian faiths, um, and across the world.

And so it's really exciting. I, again, I didn't really. I didn't know that that was really my ministry until quite recently. I feel like I got a lot of puzzle pieces, um, starting with the fact that I [00:04:00] just knew I was here for a reason since I was really young. My mom was very overwhelmed by me as a child because I just came out of the room running.

Like I just knew that I was here for a reason. I had a work to do and I wanted to do it. Um, and I didn't know that. living life was like a really important qualifier for me to do that work. Um, so it's taken, you know, 30 plus years, but, um, yeah, I mean, there were little things that God led me to along the way.

And really it's been only the last two or three years that I've had a really, uh, intense, uh, Um, spiritual awakening and learning so many things, learning a lot about our theology, the pattern of spiritual development, which is what my book talks a lot about. And then the divine feminine really came. into my story just a little over a year and a half ago.

So I, I feel like I'm really a baby in understanding my ministry. Again, I feel like I just was kind [00:05:00] of taught that this is really what I'm here for. Um, but God has already shown me that. There are really divine things that, um, that I am here and that I chose and want to be a part of, so I'm really excited by that.

I love it. I, when you said my ministry is to help the Divine Feminine be known, like, the Heavenly Father be, Heavenly Mother be known, like, just chills. I just It's so important and your, your journey to figure this out is so powerful and I don't believe it ever happens in an instant for, for anyone. It truly is.

As you say, you have to experience life because those life experiences are what gives you those gifts and those talents and those experiences that then allow you to perform that, that mission and that ministry. And. Uh, it's a lot of times we think, Oh, you know, why did I have to do that? And why did I have to [00:06:00] learn this?

And we have all these weird things that once it all becomes clear, they all come together in this beautiful tapestry of who we are as a person, how we can serve this world. But as we're going through the motions, sometimes it seems all discombobulated and, and. So to have you articulate that, how, how it's all come together.

And in the past two years that you've really had this spiritual awakening, that's very, very powerful. What, what spurred this spiritual awakening? And can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, a lot of it had to do with my podcast, the latter day disciples podcast and feeling inspired to start that.

Um, I had been given through kind of these pet projects that God had me do previous to that. Um, he'd already given me the title of the podcast, the mission of the podcast. And I thought it was going to be really based on like preparing for the second coming. And within a couple of months or even less than that, a couple of weeks of starting [00:07:00] the podcast, God showed me, no, that's not exactly what it's going to be about.

It is going to be about receiving Jesus Christ, but I've since learned that we don't have to wait for the second coming for that to happen. And so, um, when I started the podcast, It really opened up my mind and soul and I think it was a, a sacrifice that I made, I didn't know that that's what it was at the time, but it was a sacrifice God asked me to make and I made it and so because of that, my heart and mind were in a place where he could start to work with me.

I started to have questions about the gospel, which I honestly hadn't really had for a long time. Um, you know, we grow up with a certain paradigm and beliefs that we're taught and as children, you know, we're very accepting and we're willing to be molded by those things. And I was very dedicated to like the boxes and the paradigms, the triangles as we call them on my show that I had grown up in.

Um, But starting the podcast, I recognized that there was a big gap in [00:08:00] my understanding and there were things that I wanted to know, in this case pertaining to the Second Coming. But, rather than, you know, the topic of the questions being really important, I think just the fact that I opened myself up to start asking questions.

Was really what allowed God to come in and soften my heart and open my mind and really start to teach me. Um, and it's just led to greater and greater and greater things. And I think that the divine feminine has been like a pinnacle that I was working through my whole life. Like you said, um, I had no idea that she was going to be a part of my story.

Even like three years ago, I didn't know. Um, that that was going to come in so hard, but I had to build a foundation and it was kind of line upon line and then finally she was able to come in and, um, really illuminate. The thing that I've been working towards and I don't think I have the full picture obviously I think that there are still things in the future that I don't know that I'll be really excited to have those things unveiled to Me but for right now I just I see the hand of God our heavenly parents [00:09:00] in my whole journey And I've been so grateful for the things I've learned along the way.

I love what you have been sharing about questions because I think questions people shy away from And that is, that is the worst thing we could do. Questions are what allow us to then receive revelation, but it's questions with the underlying belief. That, that God is, is there answering and not from doubt, but from belief, right?

And questioning, questioning is, is where, I mean, it's what started Joseph Smith on the whole restoration. I mean, questions are so important. Um, you know, I, I do a spiritual series, Living Spiritually Connected. And part of receiving revelation is asking the right questions. And it's so powerful to be in a place where we're open to ask the questions.

And we're, we're curious enough to really ponder and, and do that. So [00:10:00] Heavenly Mother, help, help us understand how, how that started for you because you said she wasn't really even on your radar. Mm hmm. Yeah, she wasn't. I mean, I had grown up with the understanding that we had heavenly parents. I think that's probably something that I picked up at church and it resonated with me.

And so I kept it and I knew that I wanted to grow up. And when I became a mom, I wanted to teach my children that, you know, they have two heavenly parents. They have a heavenly father and a heavenly mother. That's the only way they could exist, right? Is in the context of each other. You can't have a mother without a father or a father without a mother.

Um, so I did. Start teaching my children that, you know, I told my daughter that she has a heavenly mother. But that was about all that there was to it. Like, I didn't feel compelled to learn about her. She wasn't something that I felt like Um, you know, there wasn't really a reason for me to dig in to that particular doctrine as far as I could see at the time.

[00:11:00] Um, but as I said, you know, I started this podcast and I started going through this really intense spiritual awakening. I experienced a spiritual rebirth. You know, I, I really wanted to continue my growth in this pattern that God had been teaching me. And I knew that part of that is being sanctified. I love that you said that at the beginning about being sanctified.

I appreciate that you recognize and see that in me because it is so important, um, as a part of this process of ridding ourselves of anything that comes between us and the love of God and being able to embody that love for others as well. So, um, I was moving through this process and I got to the point where I said, I really want to be sanctified.

Like I really want the dross that's in me to be removed. And I was praying about that and pondering it. It was the beginning of a new year. And so I was setting intentions. This was my intention. And, um, really soon after that, [00:12:00] God sent me an answer. It came in the way of a podcast episode, not my own. I'm actually one of Mandy Green's, who is a friend and I just love her so much.

I feel like I'm annoying, but I just adore her. And she's very patient with me. So that's, that's not on her. That's my own ego being embarrassed. But, um, anyway, so I was sent she's so wonderful. I love Mandy. I love her. Maybe we can Maybe I can link that podcast episode because I think I know the one you're talking about out.

I'll make it actually even redid it for her own podcast. So you could, you could share the one that she has on her podcast, which is reflecting light. And it's all about Mary Magdalene. And, um, she makes a comment in the podcast where she's like, you know, many of you might hear this and it's just like, nah, you know, I'm not really interested.

And then others of you, you'll hear it. And it'll light a fire in you. And that was my experience because it came in so strong to me that that was the answer to my plea for sanctification, was that I needed to know my Heavenly Mother. And again, never thought of it [00:13:00] before, like I had no motivation to really seek her, um, But when it came in so strong for me, and I've since learned that, yeah, it's 100 percent necessary for women, um, in our patterns of spiritual development, like, we have to know what we're working towards, um, and God the Father is a great template, but he's also masculine, and we are, we're not, we're feminine, and so we need to have a feminine template so that we can really understand what it is we are becoming, and not only that too, but You know, Joseph Smith said that if you do not understand yourselves, you don't understand the character of God.

And the character of God is something that we have to have a correct understanding of in order to exercise faith, in order to spiritually create and to ascend spiritually. And so, um, you know, rather than this being something that's, Kind of trivial or, or not really important. I would say exactly the [00:14:00] opposite is true.

You know, as women, if we want to develop spiritually at some point or another, we're going to be invited to know our mother. It is such a powerful connection and it's there for us. We just have to seek it. And I love how you talk about heavenly mother is, is veiled. Um, speak to that a little bit as, as we strive to know her.

Absolutely. Um, yeah, this is a really interesting concept. First off, I would hearken back to ancient Hebrew traditions and what it meant to be veiled. In our modern culture, there's kind of this subtext that suggests that you veil something because it's negative because you want to hide it or, you know, that, that we don't want to see you.

You're not that important. So we're going to put this veil over you. And anciently it was exactly the opposite. Like the things that were veiled were the things that were most important. Precious that were most important that were most sacred and highly [00:15:00] esteemed. And so femininity and the divine feminine our heavenly mother by extension of that as she embodies femininity is Veiled it is the hidden the mysterious the The dark side of the moon compared to the masculine, which is more, you know, the sun it's, it's there, it's visible.

Everyone's very aware of it. It's obviously very important. The other side is too. Um, and if you go into the scriptures and just start studying, you know, what are the mysteries, um, and you know, what are, Plain and precious things that have been removed or that have been hidden. What are some of the deeper truths that are contained in the words of God?

You start to see that the feminine side of God is all over, is all over the scriptures. And so she is Veiled in that you have to develop eyes to see, um, in order to see her, but she is there. She is just as important as the masculine. She's embodying femininity, [00:16:00] which is a key ingredient in our development as well.

So she's an example to us in that way. Um, but the one of the things that Maddie says about veils that I love is that veils are gossamer. They're not a brick wall and they are designed to be parted. You know, there is, Again, hearkening back to that ancient Hebrew symbolism in a wedding, there comes a point when the bride and groom have gone through a year's long period, honestly, of preparation for their marriage, and they're finally married and they have this sacred ordinance.

Where they consummate the marriage and that is where her veil is parted and they are known intimately in that covenant relationship. And so I think that the same can be said for us as we increase increase in our covenant relationship with God, there comes a point in time where we are invited to part that veil and to know our mother, both as her daughters and as her sons.

I love it so much. I, I remember once, um, I was in [00:17:00] primary and they asked us to have our testimony meeting or something and, and someone got up and they were bearing their testimony and, um, they were talking about Christ and I, I felt like I wanted to get up and bear my testimony and. It, it was like, Oh, but you're just a girl.

And it was so interesting and it was like, Oh, but you're just a girl. No one wants to hear what a girl has to say. And, and it was like, well, Christ was a guy and you're just a girl. And it was so interesting. And in that moment, I, I felt something stir inside of me, of my heavenly mother. And of, of, uh, just a sweet whispering that says, You are a girl, and that's powerful, and get to know your Heavenly Mother.

And, um, it's giving me chills. And when I, when I had my period, my first period, and, I mean, it, you know, it's shocking. Um, I thought, [00:18:00] okay, Christ has experienced everything, but He's not a woman. How, how, how can I come to him with this? This is feels weird. And at that moment I thought my heavenly mother is there and, and we all need her so much and she is veiled, but as you're, as you're speaking and talking, and as I've dived in over the past two weeks.

Not even two years, maybe six months or a year. Uh, it's interesting to see how she was removed out of the scriptures. And, um, was it Hezekiah, King Hezekiah, um, I think Josiah. Josiah. Yeah. I tend to resonate. There's, there's, there's, There's a debate, but I tend to think Josiah Hezekiah may have had a part in that too.

It's hard to tell But they literally pulled her out and and so many powerful symbolisms Had to be put in so that [00:19:00] we could still talk of her but not talk of her so that they wouldn't know what to pull out and as we study Isaiah and there's layers and layers and layers and and Once you understand the symbolism in the layers, you can then go and understand things on it on a deeper level It's it's the same I see with with Heavenly Mother.

Yeah, I really love that image I love what you just said there and it kind of reminds me this is interesting imagery that's being brought to mind, but Um So we're Harry Potter fans in my house. I'm thinking about in the last, it's one of the movies, uh, cause this is the image that's popping into my head.

I think it's, I think it's seven part one and it's where they're illustrating the story of the three brothers and the Deathly Hallows, right? And the image that I have is the one brother who's cloaked in the invisibility cloak and death is looking for him and he can't find him. His entire life. And so perhaps that's something to [00:20:00] meditate on too when it comes to Heavenly Mother being veiled is that she is veiled, which means she's hidden in a sense, but that also preserves her.

Like that has also kept her tradition alive in symbolism and in these kind of underground hidden things, things that are very outside of the box. We can link to the feminine. Um, and so, I don't know. Do you have thoughts about that? That's just, I, I love it so much. I think you have to seek her. You have to seek her.

And if you seek her, you will find her, I believe. And I think it's that way on purpose. And I, I love, I love that. Well, you talked about a pattern and you've talked about a pattern a few times and of sanctification. Will you enlighten us as to this pattern and, and how we can follow that and truly. I mean, my goal is to become one with Christ and to eventually see his [00:21:00] face, right?

I mean, I think that's the ultimate of all ultimates. And I would love to hear what you've discovered in this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. This is so important and I think it's one of, um, one of the really most central things that God has been teaching me over the last couple of years. It's been a very intense, concentrated learning and I have a long way to go.

So like, I don't suggest that this is. This is perfect, or this is everything, but this is what I have, um, what I have come to see, and also what I talk about quite extensively in my book, is that there is an ordained pattern of spiritual development. So, if you think about our physical development, you know, we start off as babies, and then we grow into toddlerhood, and young adulthood, and then eventually adulthood.

Adulthood, you know, I probably, I, childhood was in the middle of that. I skipped childhood. Oh my God. So, um, anyway, so you have infant, toddler, child, young adult, adult, right? And there are certain milestones that you meet [00:22:00] physically, mentally, emotionally, socially that indicate where you are in this progression.

And the idea is that our development as spiritual creatures is exactly the same. So there are milestones that we can reach that help us know where we are in growing up unto God. And since we are children of God, you know, the, the eventual hope is that if we follow this ordained pattern of spiritual development, eventually we will be made like God.

Um, and that means we, as women will be like our heavenly mother and our men will be like our heavenly father. And hopefully we'll be able to come together and build those eternal relationships the kind that our heavenly parents have. So, where do we learn about this? Well, we learn about it in the temple.

The temple, I think, is one of the best places is The way that I relate to the temple best is as a house of learning. And when I was younger, sometimes it would cross my mind, like, Okay, like, I get revelation in the temple and, you know, things like that. I've watched the [00:23:00] video a few times, so I'm not really getting a ton out of the endowment ceremony in that way.

But But is there something I'm missing? Like, is there a particular lesson or particular curriculum that God is trying to teach us in the temple? And I would make the argument that it is this ordained pattern of spiritual development. It's a little bit hard to piece it out because when we go to the temple, we experience everything all at once.

And so it's easier for us to think like, Oh, we like, We do all of it all at once, and it's not a progression, but what I've come to see is that it truly is meant to be line upon line, one thing after another. And the temple is teaching us a pattern that we need to apply in our lives outside of the temple that will help us grow up in this particular way.

One of the ways that spiritual development is different from physical development, Is that physical development is pretty automatic, right? Like, except in the cases of, like, I have a daughter who has some [00:24:00] developmental delays, um, or things like that. Like, it all kind of comes really naturally. We don't really have to do anything.

It's not like, Oh my goodness, I'm 13. I need to start my period. How do I make that happen? You know, like, thank goodness, because what a mess that would be. Um, spiritual development on the other hand does require us to buy in. It requires us to choose. To go along with this ordained pattern, so it could be that, you know, we are physically adults, but spiritually we are young children.

We haven't really experienced the milestones that the temple teaches us. I'm going to pause there and see if you have any questions, and then we can keep going. Well, yeah. It's kind of a big deal. I love it. And a very different way of thinking about it. Well, I love it because I'm a physical therapist. My background is in physical therapy.

And. I did pediatric therapy for years and years and years and I almost wrote a book called Mommies and Milestones. I had the title. I just never actually wrote the book, but There are specific things that you can do to help a child with developmental delays [00:25:00] work through each of those milestones, develop the, the core strength necessary and the balance reactions appropriately for each physical milestone to then occur.

And I love the fact that spiritually we, we develop. Likewise, line upon line, precept upon precept, we can't skip a milestone. Um, we have, we have to go, I mean, we can't go from, you know, rolling over to walking. Yeah, we have to learn how to sit up. We have to learn how to, um, go from a sit to a crawl position.

We have to learn how to rock and crawling. Then Learn to put a hand forward, then we have to learn to crawl, then we have to learn to pull to stand, and then we have to learn how to cruise at a couch before we can then take a step. I mean, there's such a, such a critical pattern to follow. And spiritually, I love the idea that that's exactly the same.

I think often we want the magic pill, right? Just give me the gift of revelation and boom. [00:26:00] And it makes perfect sense that there's a, there's a pattern, there's a developmental sequence that must be followed. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. And I think that that's a really good example. There are some aspects.

So we'll talk about these milestones. Um, some of the milestones that we look for in our spiritual development, but there is an aspect of it that is absolutely critical. And that is a hundred percent outside of our control. And that is that we have to experience God in greater and greater degrees. And God is the one who, you know, Orchestrates that side of it.

Like God is the one who visits us. Um, and I mean that actually quite literally. So anyway, but I, I think I relate that to what you were saying about how there are resources that can help us develop physically spiritually. It's the same way. There are some parts of our development that we cannot do by ourselves.

That is outside of our ability to control. Um, we could never, we cannot obey our way into heaven. Like, we're just, we, we have come, we have fallen too far in this physical [00:27:00] realm. And of course, like there is part of us that's, that's that divinity that's still connected to God. And so. There's a connection there, um, but we have to have divine intervention to make this work, and Jesus Christ is the one who provides that.

I love it. It speaks to surrender. It speaks to grace. Um, I, I love Brad Wilcox's talk on grace. You can't earn your way to heaven. You learn your way to heaven, and, and there is that, that peace that, that only God can fulfill to allow us, and, yeah. And in that way, it is very feminine, right? Like the feminine is that motion of surrender, of letting go, of releasing, of receiving, of allowing, of not trying to make anything happen, but, um, to just be, and in this case, to allow ourselves to be transformed by Jesus Christ.

Um, and so I think that's actually one of the reasons that maybe this pattern hasn't been as easily discernible, um, to us in the past is we kind of get [00:28:00] fixated on the masculine side, which is like, We go to the temple and we do these outward things and boom, like it's all done at once. Um, when in reality, if we bring the feminine into it, we understand, no, this is a process of becoming.

It is a process that takes time and it is a process that we largely cannot control. Like we, we buy in by our agency. Right. And by submitting our will to God, but other than that, like it's in God's hands, as far as when these things are going to take place and what those are going to look like in our life.

So in the temple endowment ceremony, we learn a progression of four ordinances and these ordinances we could see as our milestones, there are. I talk about four different aspects in the book, but for our purposes, I'm just going to talk about three, three specific elements to each milestone or ordinance.

There's a sign, which is something physical, something that happens to us in our physical world that shows that we want to progress in [00:29:00] this divine pattern of spiritual development. There's a law, which we often call a covenant. And then there is a token or something that I call a gift of grace. And that's kind of hearkening back to that encounter with God that we, that has to be experienced in order for us to move from one milestone, one ordinance to the next.

So the first ordinance, again, these are all symbolically represented in the temple. And then what I'm offering is what it might look like to experience those ordinances in our life. I think that that's the invitation. When we bring the feminine in, we realize, Oh, I have to become something. I can't just do these things in the temple.

And so that's what I'm speaking to is, um, a possible interpretation of what we're doing in the temple and what it looks like in our everyday life. Does that make sense? Yeah. I love it. And I think that often people are confused, like they go through the temple, they understand [00:30:00] everything and then boom, they're done like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It's to be lived and. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So the first ordinance or milestone actually lines up pretty well with the first, I would say milestone of our physical development, which is the ordinance of birth. When we come into this world. A new newly embodied spirit, um, that, or that is an ordinance. That is the first sign that we used to say, God, I want to progress was to come here and to be born into this mortal realm.

The ordinance is presided over by the feminine, right? By our mothers. Our mothers are the ones who are acting as priestesses to bring us into the world. So that's the sign. That's the physical thing that we participate in. And then the law associated with that sign, I suggest, is the Law of Obedience. And I think we see that even in our young infants, that they come kind of programmed [00:31:00] to obey certain laws and we see that in their reflexes, right?

Our baby comes, they know how to suck, they know how to curl their toes, they know how to root around to find a breast to nurse. And it's kind of this, this symbolic evidence, I guess you could say, that they came here with the understanding that they were going to need to obey. They were going to have to learn how to do these things, first off, for their physical survival.

And then, hopefully, we grow up and we're taught that we need to learn how to obey the voice of God so that we can move in this pattern of spiritual development. And then, the encounter or gift of grace that is associated with this first milestone, this first ordinance, is the gift called the Light of Christ.

We learn about this in the scriptures, that this is an endowment of spirit that comes to us through Jesus Christ, and that it is, Everyone who comes into this world is possessors of this degree of light [00:32:00] and spirit, and it helps us to orient, to have a connection to God to remind us what things are naturally good and what things are naturally bad.

So it's kind of this first primary, um, gift that everyone who, um, Uh, experiences the ordinance of birth gets to receive that's the first milestone. I love that. I love that. What's the next one? Yes, keep going. I think I think everyone would love to to understand more especially the the four things right the ordinance Um, the, um, help me, the ordinance, the ordinance is made up of a sign, a law, and a gift of grace.

Sign the law, the gift of grace. So there's a physical thing. There's a way that we buy in with our agency, and then there's a gift that comes from God. And all three of those are necessary to complete the ordinance. So that's it. We have all completed ordinance number one. Everyone in the whole [00:33:00] world has participated in that fully, which is really incredible and beautiful.

So the next ordinance, uh, and we see this all over the scriptures is the ordinance of baptism. Uh, this occurs later in our life once we have developed more physically. Um, and the sign, the outward thing that we do is we get baptized, right? We get baptized by water. And in our faith tradition that is followed up with a confirmation by the laying on of hands where we are given the injunction or the Uh, direction to move forward and to receive the Holy Ghost.

That's a really important distinction that I want to highlight here is that sometimes we, um, We get a little bit confused and we conflate that laying on of hands with our actually receiving the Holy Ghost. Um, but our leaders and the scriptures testify that those are actually pretty often different events.

So when we have hands laid on our head, we're given the, the [00:34:00] direction, go and receive the Holy Ghost. And then that event comes later on. So, kind of different than the way we typically talk about it. But that, I would say, constitutes the sign. Again, this external thing that we are doing that says, I want to progress in my relationship with God.

I want to progress in my development spiritually. The law that's associated with the ordinance of baptism is the law of sacrifice. In the scriptures, we learn about learning, we learn how to offer the sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrary spirit. That is what God asks of us. And I, there's a lot that we could talk about there, what that is and how like that's kind of massive.

Um, but I would say that you could narrow it down to, you have to be willing to give your whole heart to God, your whole soul. Everything that you think, you know, and every bit of who you think you are, like, you have to be willing to put that all on the altar and say, you know what, God, I want to [00:35:00] know you more than I want to protect my own ego in every possible way.

Um, and that's a big ask and how we do that is gonna differ. And so that's where the previous gift of grace, which is the light of Christ comes into play. So the beauty of these tokens that were given these gifts is that they play into us receiving. The next ordinance to us continuing our progression. So we all have been endowed with the light of Christ.

We have to learn how to attune ourselves to that, though. Like, that is a higher frequency of being than just, like, our natural selves default to. So we have to learn to hear the voice of the Spirit and then respond to it. We have to choose. To align ourselves with those impressions and those intuitions that we have to do good and to grow in love, to put off our pride, to put off our ignorance.

Like we have to be willing to do that. And so what's beautiful is that the light of Christ can help [00:36:00] prepare us to live the law of sacrifice. Um, that spirit will coach us individually on what we need to do in order to offer that individual sacrifice. And that can take a long time. Like it can take years.

In my case, it took 20 years. 20 years between when I was baptized by water to when I received the next token by learning how to hear the voice of the spirit and follow along with what I was told to do. And in my case, as I mentioned earlier, starting a podcast was one of the things that God needed me to do to help me offer a broken heart and contrite spirit.

I had no idea. I had no idea that you wouldn't think that that would be on the list for anybody, but it was for me. Um, So, and I, and we can talk about this with the future gifts of grace too, but they really all build on each other and they lead into each next thing. So if maybe, well, I'll just stop there for a minute.

And the gift of the gift of grace that is associated [00:37:00] then with the law of sacrifice. This is the gift of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. So again, this is where we kind of get conflated is that we've have some traditions that suggest that when I've hands laid upon my head and I'm confirmed a member of the church, that that is the baptism of fire.

And more often than not, it isn't. And we can identify that by going to the scriptures and studying what is a baptism of fire. What does spiritual rebirth look like? What is a mighty change of heart? Um, the book of Mormon is one of the best resources for understanding what actually happens when you're baptized with fire.

Um, a couple of examples that stand out. If you go and look at King Benjamin's people, who all fell down under the weight of their understanding of their fallenness before God and cried out for deliverance, and then they were delivered and they They rose up again with no desire to sin. They were, they were completely changed.

Um, we also see it in the account of Nephi and Lehi when they are imprisoned by the [00:38:00] Lamanites and there's this darkness that comes and the Lamanites are all kind of freaking out. And, and they're like, what do we do? And one of them knows the truth, which is we've got to cry out to Jesus Christ. You could interpret that also as we've got to offer a broken heart and contrary spirit.

We've got to say, I'm done living the way that I was living. I will do whatever you tell me to. Put ourselves on the altar and then they are delivered and they are completely different people and they receive angels, they receive all these spiritual gifts, all of those things are associated with the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, which is a literal visitation from Jesus Christ in a transformative event where I was one way and now I'm completely different and in the middle was him in the words of the chosen.

I love the chosen. Yes. Yes. I think, I think there's so much to be had there and the opportunity to ask powerful questions for anyone that's listening. I think that's a powerful question to ask. Have I received my baptism of fire and what [00:39:00] can I do to do that? And, and how can I progress on these spiritual milestones to truly come into the presence of, of my savior, Jesus Christ.

And, and I love, I love how you said it. It made me think of this quote. Um, and it's from Bruce R. McConkie, and it says after the true saints receive and enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost, after they know how to attune themselves to the voice of the Spirit, which I think is what you're talking about, the light of Christ, after they mature spiritually, and then so that they see visions, work miracles and entertain angels.

This is going through that spiritual milestone after they make their con election, made sure and prove themselves worthy of every trust. After all this and more, it will become their right and privilege to see the Lord and commune with him face to face, revelations, visions, angelic visitations, the rendering of the heavens and appearances among men of the Lord himself.

It is and you went into the next couple of ordinances with that quote to like, that really is the [00:40:00] progression. And again, it's hard because we read it and we're like, Oh, all at once, like all of that will happen all at once. And it's like, No, this is really one thing at a time. But yes, this Milestone, this ordinance, the ordinance of baptism again, which requires all three of those parts, right?

We have to make the sign through baptism of water. We have to learn to live the law by offering a broken heart and contrite spirit as our sacrifice. And then we have to be visited by Jesus Christ and made into new creatures. That's another phrase that you can look up or becoming sons and daughters of God.

being given a new heart. These are all talking about the same thing, the same experience. You have to have all three of those to complete the ordinance. And this is one of the most pinnacle ordinances to complete. Um, because it really is the overcoming of the ego of the natural man. Um, it is what puts us in a justified state where remitted and now I am saved.

Like this is salvation that we're talking about. And then the things that, Bruce Armaconchi goes on to talk about are the [00:41:00] exaltation piece of it too. Um, but yeah, it's so, so important for us to know that unless we have all three of those elements, the temple, the temple shows us those are all required to finish this milestone.

So it's so hard because that can elicit some really hard feelings, right? Like there can be part of us that's like. So upset to be learning this and be like, so you mean maybe I haven't received the full gift of the Holy Ghost yet. Um, and I think that there's a lot of trauma that can come up with that.

And certainly we need to go to the Lord to heal anything that that elicits, if that triggers us. Um, for me in, in my scenario, when I learned this again, I only learned this a couple of years ago, two or three years ago at this point. And to me, it was thrilling. Like, it was so exciting to me, because you have to realize, like, I thought that I had pretty much done everything that I need to do by the time I was 21.

Just endure to the end now, I guess. Yeah, like, endure to the end, which just means [00:42:00] die a member of the church, right? And Do some more temple work in the meantime, but like you kind of, you know, I felt like I already kind of knew everything that the temple had to offer. Um, and so when I learned this and when I really began to see that this is a transformational process, it really is about becoming in Jesus Christ and that it's not something that I can just like, check, check, check, you know, do myself.

That was so exhilarating to me and like, I was so thrilled and I immediately went to God and just praised God because it was, it was, I mean, I think of the story of Alma the Younger, you know, and he was one way and then he was another way. Right? And I think it's powerful to go to the scriptures and see, see where, where that has happened.

And um, you know, being awake, I think when someone says, now I'm awake, [00:43:00] I think that's, that's a powerful indication of an incredible experience. That's a really great example with Alma the Younger because he is like one of the most descriptive, um, examples of this. That we see where he really was like the vilest of sinners and then he was spiritually reborn and he was exactly the opposite and sometimes we look at him and we're like, well, that's an extreme example.

Like, I'm not that big of a sinner. And so I don't need that. But he wakes up and you can find this. I want to say it's Mosiah 26 or 27 where he actually has his experience. He talks about it more later on in Alma 36. Um, But when he actually has the experience, I think it's in, near the end of Mosiah, and he says, everyone has to experience this.

Like he wakes up and says, marvel not that all must be born of God like this, like what he experienced is not supposed to be [00:44:00] a rarity. It's not just for people who were really bad and then they turned their life around. Like we all have to experience it. And again, it's because it's a part of this milestone.

Like if we don't have that visitation from Jesus Christ, we need his grace. Like we have to be transformed before we can continue on in the pattern. Yes. I love it so much. Um, do you have time to go through the rest of the milestones? Yeah. Okay. No problem. So these ones, this is where it starts to get ethereal a little bit.

And maybe we're talking about things that are definitely not really explored very much, but these ones, I would say are moving us more in the direction of exaltation. Like we've experienced salvation when we finished that second chapter. ordinance or have it completed on our behalf is really a better way to say that.

Um, but the next ordinance, um, is actually the ordinance of marriage. So really quick, like this is a great example, um, of like, where do we find the temple [00:45:00] in the scriptures, right? Because a lot of the times you read it from a surface level and you're like, the temple's not really here. Um, well it is there.

Especially as you dive deeper, you start to see that there's actually temple symbolism all over the scriptures. But one of the key ways that we see the temple is that instead of talking about like the masculine external, um, things that we do in the temple, the, the liturgy and the rituals that we participate in there.

Instead, the scriptures are talking about the lived experiences of when we bring that feminine side into it and realize this is a process of becoming. And so the third ordinance being marriage, marriage is all over the scriptures. Like, we see it in the theology of Jesus Christ as a breadgroom, and there's a lot that we could go into with that.

Um, but the sign of this ordinance is being married. Is having a wedding ceremony and saying, you know, a husband and a wife, becoming one in that. moment, um, which is foreshadowing. They're actually becoming one [00:46:00] right through this same process. So this is really key to understand too, is that although I feel a draw to the divine feminine, like you have to have the divine masculine as well, because our spiritual development is intricately connected to each other.

Like there's not a way that a man or a woman is going to get to Godhood unless they have a partner that's going through this with them. Um, and I could, I could say a lot about that too, that's probably really triggery in some ways and I apologize for that. Let me just say that you can do a lot singly, um, and God, Jesus Christ is the bridegroom, I was going to say.

Yeah. If you're not married. And then in Christ is your bridegroom. Right, and you will have the chance. I firmly believe that. You will have the chance to develop with a partner who wants the same things that you want. When and how that's going to come about is going to be different for all of us. Um, but I truly believe that that will be the case.

So, the sign is your wedding [00:47:00] ceremony. The law is the law of chastity. So hopefully this starts to make some puzzle pieces fit together too, is that sometimes when we go through the endowment ceremony, we're like the law of chastity, it's like kind of in a weird place and it's sort of random. And like, if I'm being obedient, aren't I already fulfilling the law of chastity?

Like there's a lot that that can kind of elicit when we realize that the law. Is tied to the ordinance and the ordinance that's symbolically being represented is marriage that makes a whole lot more sense So that is being chased in our relationship with our spouse But as we've talked about it's also learning how to be chased to Jesus Christ as our bridegroom And there's a lot that we could go into on that And then the gift of, the gift of grace associated with this token is the promise of eternal life, which is called the calling and election made sure that you, that Bruce Omerkonke mentioned in that quote that you shared.

So, if you go to the scriptures, it would be a really interesting study to look at what is the connection between kind of these [00:48:00] marriage, Um, marriage imagery that we see there and the gift of eternal life. It's all over the place. I love it. Makes me want to go read my scriptures. Okay. And then the last one, um, and, and I would say that this is, I'll just say what I, my interpretation is.

So again, this is the fourth milestone, the fourth ordinance that we participate in symbolically during the temple endowment ceremony. And a possible interpretation of the lived experience is that this milestone has to do with sealing. So marriage and sealing actually two separate things, uh, that can get kind of confusing because a lot of us, like if you're like me, I got married and sealed at the same time.

But in terms of the process of spiritual development, those are actually two different things. We can see that a little bit when we understand that the sealing is contingent, right? The sealing is always based upon our faithfulness. And so if you don't have[00:49:00]

So the physical sign is participating in that sealing ordinance. So you can actually do the signs for marriage and sealing at the same time. And that's fine. That's, that's a great way to do it. That's how I did it. The law is the law of consecration, which is kind of a culmination of all the other laws.

Um, it, it is being willing to, You know, we don't have to be completely devoted to God in every possible way. Everything that I am belongs to God and I will do whatever they tell me to do and it's, and I've been trained that way, right? Like I've grown in my relationship with God by learning first how to obey and then how to sacrifice and then how to be chaste.

And so now I'm prepared to learn what it is to consecrate. And then the gift of grace in that one is, again, as Elder McConkie mentioned, it is the literal visitation of Jesus Christ. Which is called the second comforter, um, and he comes to us and then [00:50:00] he actually can visit us more than once and he becomes a tutor and he carries us into the next phases of this process.

So this is not even the whole process, like this does not even get us all the way to Godhead, but it's what we've been given in our temple endowment ceremony currently. It's amazing. It's amazing. Um, and I've got a lot of ways that we can go from here, but I, I kind of, I love, I love this and I love this pattern and I would just encourage everyone to write it down and ponder it and, and go to the temple, go to the scriptures and see, see it in play and, and actually live those ordinances.

And I, and I think, um, Really striving for that baptism of fire and then where you're, wherever you're at and striving to move forward, uh, as we, I want to circle back to heavenly mother as we, as we end and how, [00:51:00] how can this process, um, further connect us to her and, uh, and what, what you would recommend.

Because women are being called right now to step up. I feel it so strongly, and I see it so strongly. Women are being called, and I feel we have a huge, a huge part to play in preparing this world for the second coming. And so, help, help us all understand the best way that we can, Yeah. So maybe I can tie these two things together, right?

Cause we kind of talked about Heavenly Mother and then we talked about the temple pattern. Um, and they are connected the way that they're connected. So if you think about the temple endowment ceremony, when you go in, you have the women that are typically seated on the left and the men are seated on the right.

And I thought about that in the past and I didn't really have I don't have a good explanation, explanation given to me, other than to say, well, men and women are just separate until they're sealed. And there is truth in that for sure. But one of the things that God has been showing me, [00:52:00] especially over the last two years, is that there is, there's an aspect of the gospel that we overlook almost a hundred percent of the time.

And that is revealed in the doctrine of gender, in the doctrine of femininity and masculinity. And the reality is, is that when we are moving through this process of spiritual development, when we are striving for these different milestones, the way that we experience that as women is going to be different than how it is for men.

And a lot of the way that That is critical. That is so critical to understand because we can't do it the way the guys do it. There you go. They can't do it Something no one has said, but is like the most crucial, like Yes. Right? Like, it's such a lightbulb moment. And once you say it, you're like, well, duh.

But like, no one has said that before, right? It's really important to understand. We don't think about it. And so, in order for us as women to move through this process of spiritual development, we have to learn how to be feminine. [00:53:00] We have to learn how our female bodies interact with our feminine spirits to become like the Divine Feminine, our Heavenly Mother.

And so we get pieces of that in a lot of different places. Um, but, but we really, it's, it's really a process about learning ourselves, about learning who we are as daughters of God very specifically. Um, and so that's kind of the way that this all ties together is that when we go through this process of spiritual development, there's a couple different things that are happening.

First off, we're going to be guided by the light of Christ and then when we receive that endowment of the Holy Ghost, the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, when we get those gifts, they're going to start teaching us and inviting us as women to become more feminine. And this started happening to me before I knew what That that's what God was doing, like I, so going back to my story where I was praying for sanctification and I was told, you need to learn your heavenly mother.

The next week I lost my job. I was the primary breadwinner for my family. [00:54:00] I made six figures. We were buying a brand new house. And it was an expensive house. I know, be careful what you pray for, right? I know! And I was, I was also five months pregnant. And so I was like, Okay, thank you, God for that. And so I was like, okay, well I'm just gonna have the baby, and then I'll go back to work after that, and like, we'll just live off of my husband's salary.

Um, which wasn't a lot at the time. He was working as a seminary teacher. So that's like not a lot. Um, but anyway, so I did that I had the baby in May and then in July I was thinking about like Starting to go back to work and God's like no, I don't want you to go back to work and I was like Okay. Well, we have to sell this house and like we we have to do these other things Um, but what I realized now and I didn't at the time is that Again, in order to know my heavenly mother, I have to tap into who I am as a woman.

And that means I have to be living in a space of femininity. And this goes way beyond, like this is not about stereotypes [00:55:00] or anything, but like the, the nature and the reality of things is that the feminine spirit is best, um, as the, as the magnetic and inspirational force and the masculine spirit is the more go-getter like achiever.

Spirit and like to be fair for anyone that's listening to this and was like, well, that's not me Mostly it's not me either. Like I have a lot of masculine. I have a lot of masculine spirit Candace you probably do too like that kind of comes with these platforms and businesses and things that we have Um, so the ratio for each woman is going to be different and it even changes at times in our lives You know like in young motherhood You might, like, you have to have more structure, or not, like, it kind of depends, um, whereas later in life, maybe you can have some more flexibility and, and be more feminine that way.

Uh, the good thing is that the feminine side is the side of nuance, it is the side where there can be [00:56:00] variability, and we can each have our own individual experience going through this process, as opposed to the masculine, which is, like, really rigid, no, you have to do it, like, in order, in this particular way, um, and so, um, Anyway, that's a long way to say that this process is best achieved when we as women are embodying our own femininity.

And as we do that, each step of the way, each milestone is going to increase our familiarity with who we are as individuals, as women. And as we learn about who we are, we learn about who our mother is. So I was given the outline of this book, Consider Yourself as Eve, which is a guide to spiritual development for women and the men who love them.

Because I think knowing these milestones, like the milestones are the same for men. How we get there is going to be different. Um, I was given this outline at the end of April, and it just came in like a single download, where God was like, this is what I want you to write about. And I'm like, okay. So, and, and also you need to do it by [00:57:00] July.

And I was like, you mean the end of July, right? Because it's the end of April right now. And like, that's not going to happen. And God, and I kind of worked with that for a while. I was like, God means the end of July until the middle of June. And God was like, no, no, no, I meant July. So here's someone to help you watch your kids.

So you can finish what I told you to do. And I'm like, okay, oops, sorry. Anyway, so all of this was coming in this book kind of culminated and I don't really feel like I wrote it. Like I feel like it was kind of channeled, like it came through me. Um, but it really is way more than what I feel like I'm capable of putting together.

And one of the really beautiful things that I saw that God did in this book, it's actually not very much about heavenly mother specifically. Like she's a little bit at the beginning and she's at the end and she's sort of sprinkled throughout it. Um, but what God showed me, which again, this is so cool guys, like this is not me.

I didn't sign. I'm not cool enough to play on this, but what God showed me is that the first chapter and the last chapter [00:58:00] formed a chiasmus where like there are paralleled ideas that are building to A point, and at each book end was Heavenly Mother. And what God showed me through my own process of writing this book, which taught me a lot about myself and taught me more about God, is that, you know, we go through this book, we go through this process of spiritual development, of learning and growing and increasing in light and knowledge and encountering God in greater and greater ways.

And at the end of it, we come back to the beginning and we see the beginning clearly for the first time. And when we do that, we as women will realize That Heavenly Mother has been here all along, that we've known her the whole time, that even though she was veiled to us for a moment, like, she has never been apart from us because she is in us.

We are her daughters, and like, there's no, like, we, we [00:59:00] encounter her by encountering ourselves. And this journey of transformation is the way that we do that. It's so powerful. I love the truth of that. Uh, well thank you so much for sharing everything that you have. I feel like you're a wealth of knowledge.

We could talk for hours. Is there anything on your heart that you would like to share as we, as we close up here? Anything else that you just feel inspired about? Yeah, something that's been just kind of sitting on my heart recently and that I really just want to share and testify of Um, I get that these topics are kind of weird and they're kind of scary and they're very much outside of Sort of the the typical like mainstream LDS box that many of us are used to and I've thought about that a little bit and What God has come to show me in the last little while is that we as women have [01:00:00] already been given permission to Seek our heavenly mother and to seek the divinity in ourselves.

It's written in our flesh It's a part of who we are. I think I could make a pretty strong argument that our leaders are inviting us to do that I can make a really strong argument that the scriptures are inviting us to do that to seek her to seek to understand The mysteries of God and the divine feminine is one of the greatest Mysteries.

Um, and I think we see that in ourselves. I, I always say, like, I think I'm a mystery to myself sometimes. Like, I don't understand as a woman, all the things that I experience or, you know, how crazy I can be at times. Um, and that's a part of it. Like, that's a part of who we are as daughters of a Heavenly Mother.

And so, if something in this has resonated with you, but at the same time you feel this hesitancy, I would just go to God in prayer and I would ask in the name of Jesus Christ, like, Do I have your permission? Do I have your [01:01:00] permission to go there? And I think that what you'll find is a voice answering you back that says, Yeah, you've had permission the whole time.

You have the permission, you have the power, and this is your invitation. So if you feel inclined to accept it, there you go. That's the next part of your journey. I love it so much. And I hope everyone does. There's so much power to be had there. Me too. But honestly, a lot of people won't, and that's okay too.

Like, that's the other side of the coin, right? Is like, also, if you feel called to do it, and other loved ones in your life don't, that can be really upsetting, but just know that that's okay. And like, there's a time for them. There's a time for us. It's all going to be woven together in the end. I love it.

Okay, so tell us how people can find your book. Absolutely. So my book is on Amazon. You can find it, again, it's called Consider Yourself as Eve, a guide to spiritual development for women and the men who love them by Megan Farner. We have it in hardback, paperback. E book, and then we should have the audio [01:02:00] book out.

Hopefully, hopefully by the time this comes out, we'll have that out as well. I know it's so much easier to listen to things, um, as a podcaster, I totally get that. So, um, we want to have that available. Hopefully that'll be out really soon, if it's not out already. And is it already out on Amazon? Uh, it'll be out October 22nd.

Okay, this month, right? Yeah, October 27th. Okay, that's the big, the big date. There it is. And then we're also going to be having, so I don't know if any of your listeners are interested, but I'll invite you and anyone who wants to come. Please. We're going to be having some book launch parties. So we'll be having one in Idaho Falls on November 1st, which is a Friday in the evening.

And then we'll have one in Salt Lake as well. South Salt Lake on the second in the evening. So if you go to our website, hopefully we'll be able to find signups for that. And you can RSVP, but we'll have book signings and some cool people from my podcast. We'll probably be there. Candice will hopefully come.

Yes, I'm going to play.[01:03:00]

So it'll be a good time. Everyone's invited. Okay. And I'll, I'll link to your, the link. I'll put the Amazon link in there. I'll put, Oh, I guess it, do I have the Amazon link yet? I guess we don't have it yet till the 22nd on the 22nd. You'll be able to find it. Yeah. And I'll link everything on the show notes.

So, Oh, Megan, it's been such a pleasure to be here with you today. I just. I just want to give you a huge hug and I just want to hug everyone out there. This has just been such a beautiful feast of, of light. And thank you for being here. Absolutely. Thank you.

Thank you my dear friends for joining me today. Megan has truly done the work to seek and receive clarity on her mission and purpose. She is a powerful example of one who is owning her divine greatness in order to do her work in this world. The subjects we discussed today of divine femininity, heavenly mother, spiritual development according to the pattern and template of the temple, working toward ultimately [01:04:00] seeing our savior Jesus Christ face to face in mortality, these things are of critical, eternal importance.

I have felt such an urgency to know and commune with my heavenly mother and to up level my relationship with Christ, becoming more and more one with them. My thoughts keep reflecting back to our recent conference when God's prophet, Russell M. Nelson, said, My dear brothers and sisters, in a coming day, Jesus Christ will return to this earth as the millennial Messiah.

So today I call upon you to rededicate your lives to Jesus Christ. I call upon you to help gather scattered Israel and to prepare the world for the second coming of the Lord. I call upon you to talk of Christ, testify of Christ, have faith in Christ and rejoice in Christ. Come unto Christ and offer your whole soul to him.

This is the secret of a life of joy. The best is yet to come, my dear brothers and sisters, because the Savior is coming again. The best is yet to come because the Lord is hastening His work. The best is yet to come as we fully turn our hearts and our lives [01:05:00] to Jesus Christ. I love it. I hope that this episode helps you to do just that.

Turn your heart and life to Christ. Megan's book, Consider Yourself as Eve, is a great tool to enlighten and guide us there. So is her podcast, Latter day Disciples. And I am teaching a nine week course called Living Spiritually Connected, which is an invitation to refocus on Christ. It teaches the why, the what, and the how of receiving personal revelation and accessing our own intuition.

And then it dives deep into each spiritual sense and how they manifest in our lives and work together in our spiritual gifts. If you're ready to live more spiritually connected, join me, find the link in the show notes. And remember in whatever place or circumstance you find yourself, own your divine greatness, use your greatness to do the work and the good in the world.

Like only you can, you are designed for greatness.